Talk:Patrick Weekes
Pronouns Are we really gonna go with this? henioo (da talk page) 13:04, November 24, 2019 (UTC) : Seems like a small change to make to respect someone's choices, so I have no objections. 00:48, November 25, 2019 (UTC) :: That's how it starts.. EzzyD (talk) 09:55, November 25, 2019 (UTC) : This is a real-world article and this wiki is an online encyclopedia. That means we have some standards. Conforming to someone's wishes is not part of our mission. Our mission is to describe things as they are from an objective viewpoint. Subsequently the only way we can implement this is by adding a note about Patrick's status in a separate section of the page. 13:17, November 25, 2019 (UTC) : Wikipedia is still battling this out in an edit history as well. I am inclined to agree with Viktoria’s sentiment that comfort has nothing to do with article standards, whereas using plural pronouns in singular situations is a new advent. I’m happy to call them they in a discussion post out of respect, but I am not happy to compromise grammar where it matters. : We've been using "they" as a singular pronoun for years on this wiki, it's part of the guidelines to write about the player characters in a gender neutral way, by using "they" and "their" as pronouns. I don't see why we can't do the same here. I'll also note that Merriam-Webster added "they" as a nonbinary pronoun to their dictionary earlier this year. Here's what they had to say on the subject: https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they --Evamitchelle (talk) 16:00, November 25, 2019 (UTC) ::Yes it is correct when the character can be either male or female, such as the Warden. However that does not apply in our case here. 18:34, November 25, 2019 (UTC) ::: Using singular they as a pronoun for nonbinary people is accepted by several dictionaries (e.g. Merriam-Webster, online Oxford Dictionary) and the AP Stylebook. Patrick Weekes' Wikipedia page has been updated with they/them pronouns to reflect their stated pronoun change, as have the pages of other nonbinary authors/celebrities. It's used in publications like the New York Times and the Guardian. This argument that using singular they for nonbinary people is below our standards just doesn't hold water for me. --Evamitchelle (talk) 00:43, November 26, 2019 (UTC) : Singular they has been in usage for longer than the existence of the modern English language. Describing it as a compromise of grammar is not just inconsiderate, it's ahistorical, nonsensical, and outright untrue. Singular you is at least three hundred years newer than singular they. If it was used without complaint by Chaucer (commonly referred to as the Father of English Literature), a fandom wiki that uses words like "gaatlok" and "thaig" has absolutely no leg to stand on. And regardless of whether it's grammatical or not, it's a case of respect. Refusing to countenance this very simple change is a clear signal to any nonbinary users of this wiki (including the head writer of the game!) that you don't feel they deserve community respect or have a real place here. --Iodhadh (talk) 21:05, November 26, 2019 (UTC) : To elaborate on my previous statement, I am strongly for the change. While I agree with Viktoria that documenting the franchise objectively is important, when we're documenting something that is not a video game character, but a real, living person it can't be our only consideration. Further, it's a grammatically sound change (see Wikipedia for examples in addition to ones listed by Evamitchelle). 00:18, November 27, 2019 (UTC) : There are only two genders of man and woman. If a he wants be called a she, and if a she wants to be called a he, that is fine. But pandering to people who claim there are more than two genders is wrong in my eyes. And omitting a proper pronoun or using a gender-unspecific just to be politically correct is just plain awkward and unnecessary. henioo (da talk page) 13:38, November 28, 2019 (UTC) :: Canada has a third gender option on its census and nonbinary people can apply to have an "X" gender marker on their passports. Many cultures in history have had (and still have) gender identities beyond man and woman. Intersex people exist. --Evamitchelle (talk) 17:18, November 28, 2019 (UTC) :::It was at some point legal to own another person in all major civilisations of the world. I'm sorry, but that means nothing. Laws come and go, logic and facts stay. henioo (da talk page) 23:10, November 28, 2019 (UTC) :::: "There are only two genders and anything else is awkward and unnecessary political correctness" isn't "logic and facts." Actual scientific research by actual scientists indicates that sex is not a binary, and gender has been understood as non-binary by social scientists for decades. Saying that biological sex is strictly limited to male and female is incorrectly oversimplified: suitable for explaining basic genetics to children, not for actual discussion between adults (for more on this topic see https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/). And, more to the point: regardless of whether it's "scientifically valid," using the pronouns people ask you to use for them is about respect. It harms no one to refer to Patrick Weekes as they've asked us to, and using their correct pronouns on this wiki is a signal that we as a community want to be welcoming to all fans, not just those who fit a narrow definition of acceptable lifestyle. --Iodhadh (talk) 00:02, November 29, 2019 (UTC) :::::Citing a sex chromosome anomaly as scientific proof is not really the most convincing of arguments. Citing a debunked 'scientific' website is also not really the best source. I am afraid but Henio0's argument stands. Also, do you think we should also allow more custom pronouns such as "xir" ? 13:59, November 29, 2019 (UTC) ::::::I personally have no idea on how/where the website source is debunked, but to me, it does not seem that much less legit than the low-key efforts at binary-normative crusading apparently going on here. Could we at least agree to Weekes' preference for singular they as a notes/trivia point?Buckeldemon (talk) 19:53, November 30, 2019 (UTC) :::::::I would absolutely be ok with a trivia point. :::::: I don't see what is "debunked" about Scientific American, but, okay. Just because you don't like the one specific basic-and-accessible explainer I shared doesn't make the facts I stated untrue: that actual scientists recognize both sex and gender as not being binary. It's still not "logic and facts" to claim that sex must be strictly binary and that anyone who thinks otherwise is just being "politically correct." And, yes, as a matter of fact, I do think we should allow pronouns like xe/xyr (which for the record has been in use since 1973 and has its own Wikipedia page), but that's a red herring. No one relevant to this wiki has requested we refer to them using that pronoun. We're discussing Patrick Weekes, who uses they/them pronouns, which are already in use elsewhere on this wiki and which there is no legitimate grammatical argument not to use. "I don't believe nonbinary identity is valid" isn't a legitimate argument. --Iodhadh (talk) 20:17, November 30, 2019 (UTC) : Absolutely not. These pages are meant to represent the people as they actually are, not what they think they are. We are meant to avoid emotional arguments or conjecture when creating the articles to maintain their objectivity. I see *zero* reason to avoid that just because this guy claims to be a plural when he is in fact decidedly not. EzzyD (talk) 10:12, December 6, 2019 (UTC) ::He's a guy. The article should remain as is to reflect that fact. What does nonbinary mean anyway? (talk) 17:29, December 6, 2019 (UTC) : Since it seems unlikely that we’ll reach a consensus any time soon, how about a compromise? How about removing all pronouns, by rewording when possible, using “Weekes” when not, and possibly adding a trivia point as discussed above? --Evamitchelle (talk) 14:44, December 28, 2019 (UTC) :: So long as grammar isn’t compromised in the process. :: No problem with a compromise as well. 16:07, January 4, 2020 (UTC) :: I’ve made the changes for now, feel free to improve if/where needed. I found conveying marital status especially tricky and I’m not completely satisfied with the final result. I also removed a reference that’s not really needed anymore, and added the Tevinter Nights contribution. --Evamitchelle (talk) 14:06, January 9, 2020 (UTC)